Faded, Jaded Mandarin ([info]nvonflue) wrote,
@ 2008-04-17 21:58:00
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I figured I oughta write something about webcomics
So, thanks to Xerxes' kind invitation, this blog is now being automatically cross posted over at comixtalk.

I'm not entirely sure of the last time I posted anything about webcomics. To me, there's not much going on of great interest. I'm one of those "formalists" or "icontrashists", you know, the kind of dude who doesn't care much for "classicists" or "conventionalist" goers or whatever. I previously had stated that I thought webcomics were in a sort of cooling or contracting period after the second "big bang" of experimental work that birthed many of the concrete uses the internet has provided us as comic-makers (Screen-shaped pages, serialization, community and fanbase building, online collectives, digital distribution, the destruction of the micropay and subscription models, and thier final successful cumulative bastardization, "the teeshirt shill") In all of that, there isn't many new and artful boundaries to be pushed. To my mind, people are now paving over the trails that were blazed before, readying them for the automobiles soon to come barreling down the highway. The larger print comics companies have been venturing out on the roads, into the suburbs for weekend picnics, trying out models for IP collecting, the re-monetizing of old material, and straight up digital wharehouseing.

All that to say that I think webcomics have cooled. And all of this has made a solid base for comics online, so long as you can stick to the formula. Lots of updates, cult of personality, plenty of merch, etc....But where does it leave guys like me, the formalists who are looking around for work that is inventive. Work that inspires new ways to tell old stories. Where are the comics that are hammering out tools for the next generation to hone and refine? Honestly, outside of B.Shur, I haven't found much. I've had to look outside of webcomics for my webcomics fix. And man, are some guys leaving formalists like me in the dust!



Last year I was intensely proud to be a part of a project with writer Mark Teppo. Many years before, we collaborated on a short fiction piece at the now dormant opi8.com, and later, Mark took what was a short and interesting piece about a noir dream detective, and turned it into the Oneromantic Mosaic of Harry Potemkin, which ran as a serial at Farrago's Wainscot.The piece is nothing short of a massive achievement on Mark's part, a sprawling, extensive, convoluted dream diary made spatial by the use of hyperlinked "Story Nodes" which create an entirely non-linear, yet serialized, reading experience.

Now I know some of you jerks just fell asleep during that last sentence and frankly, I'm glad.

Now, the Potemkin story is done and resides in it's entirety at www.psychobabel.net/, where each story node is meticulously cataloged for your navigation. Or, if you prefer to jump in and learn to swim, you can pick any one of the 12 greater chapters to start with. Or, if you're visually minded, you can choose where to begin the story based on glimpses of the illustrations I made for each chapter. Or, if none of those appeal to you, there's another page which contains many different ways to travel through the story (example: here's a navigation tree of every conversation that includes the character "Nora")

Do you see what I'm getting at here? Right there is 5 user-defined ways to read a single story. And there's a ton more. Not to mention the actual navigation of linked nodes as you read. It's an endless complication, a perfect mirror of a dream, set out before you to race or pace through.

It's what webcomics wanted to try, but never got around to...

And this brings me to another great illustration of how comics have always been the geeky younger virginal cousin of print books. We are  always on the scene first (cause we're helping the hot cheerleader with her homework) but we just can't seal the deal.

Penguin's We Tell Stories

There's a wealth of great navigational tricks here. There's a story told through Google Maps. There's a story that unfolded across a fictional character's blog and Twitter account. There's a story that was written and published live, (a sort of equivalent to a live-blogged 24 hour comic), there's even the holy Grail of non-linear webcomics, a successful choose your own adventure story. And frankly I'm hard pressed to figure out in what way this one isn't already a comic. And let's not forget, this isn't a bunch of guys trying out new things in their spare time. They were paid to do this. By a big-name publisher. The kind of publisher that puts every one making a living on webcomics today collectively to shame.

Why is it that webcomics could have been so close to making work like this, years ago, yet totally drop the ball when the time was right? I mean, we've had talented people create programs to do just this kind of work, and we ignore them. Does it have something to do with our inherited relationship to print comics, a built-in inferiority complex? Lord knows print comics have been illegitimized by text-based books all of their lives.

At a time when comics and supposed "lowbrow" art is enjoying a zenith of popularity, when we have museum and gallery shows dedicated to the achievements of our past innovations, why is it that we're not keeping our eye on the next horizon? What kind of future successes are we missing, while scrambling to make this medium a success?



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[info]rteacher
2008-04-18 11:36 am UTC (link)
Hey! I've been working on something based on the myth of the Minotaur, but it ain't ready for the public yet.
Also have you seen my print version of infinite canvas book, "mouse cheese cat"?

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[info]nvonflue
2008-04-18 03:00 pm UTC (link)
I don't think I've seen the Mouse Cheese Cat book, either online or print. What's the link?

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[info]rteacher
2008-04-18 11:56 pm UTC (link)
Here's some images of the print version of mouse cheese cat
http://flickr.com/photos/grantcthomas/431732822/in/set-72057594106948625/
and a favorable review here:
http://shawnhoke.blogspot.com/2007/01/mouse-cheese-cat-by-grant-thomas-this.html
It is indeed a comic about nothing :)

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[info]fabricari
2008-04-18 12:52 pm UTC (link)
And... and... I've been making less sense than ever! http://fabricari.livejournal.com/tag/babel

But, yeah, the whole razzel-dazzel age of Internet novelties is over, but that doesn't mean comics aren't persisting. They just might not be getting the coverage you'd expect.

Even though I've sort of hibernated from the web-comic culture, I'm regularly reminded by friends and artists here on my LJ f-list that the pulse is beating strong.

[Unknown LJ tag] hasn't stopped trying to innovate with story-telling techniques, even though he's always promising that life's going to slow him down.

A lack of dialog doesn't mean there's a lack of doing. The talking seems to mostly invite the naysayers, but people who really care about innovation are just walking away and doing it.

And at the same time, since the conversation started - the web has innovated in ways that would blow your mind. Remember when Click wheel was a hype? The IPod touch has pretty much nullified it by coming up with something even better. (I'm dying to get an IPhone someday and see if I can't format comics for it.) Portable internet isn't novel any more, this has raised the stock of webcomics - you can now take your webcomic to the shitter in ways you could only take a beat up old graphic novel.

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[info]fabricari
2008-04-18 12:53 pm UTC (link)
Unknown LJ Tag is supposed to be: http://tymmi.livejournal.com/

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[info]nvonflue
2008-04-18 03:09 pm UTC (link)
I'm not meaning to make an example of Tym, who is doing very interesting work, but it's a far cry (so far) from his Infinite Canvas stuff.(I think he's said he may make an IC version of "!" sometime down the road, though).

Scott McCloud's wrote another book.
Cat's working on a print anthology.
E-merl has moved almost completely to a serialized strip.
Demian-5 who?

And, Me? It is a bit disingenuous to call out everyone else, but forget that I'm just as capable of doing new work.

I think I'm complaining more about the climate of webcomics, than the creators. It's clear there are a ton of creators who would like to make aggressively experimental work, but don't see much value in it at this time.

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[info]fabricari
2008-04-18 03:41 pm UTC (link)
To further scrutinize poor Tym:
Honestly, I MUCH prefer the infinite /panel/ experiment versus the infinite canvas. I had been thinking about it recently and realized, that if you're boxing individual moments in typical panels, there's really not much experimental or experience changing about infinite as they've been done before. Following a line between panels doesn't really do much different than clicking a next button or flipping a page. The typical rules of sequential art story telling still apply. The relationship of the panels fascinate me more. I still go nuts over Dave Sim establishing a beat in Cerebus then fucking it up by over laying panels to simulate asynchronous moments.

The infinite panel fucks with angles and moments in time. Disney has done it time and time again in their old Goofy cartoons. Applying it to static moment comics is great!

At the end of the day every comic book artist needs to have something to say, and that supercedes any format. I'm learning that it's even more important than comic culture or audiance.

I'm not going to wave my own banner too high, but I learned some incredible effects from my little "babel" experiment. By putting place holder glyphs in place of real meaty text, the comic becomes implicitly interactive. I'm not talking about a comic with blank bubbles and user submitted scripts. By having fixed glyphs, the "noise" in the bubbles have their own rhythm and there's implied meaning. The feedback I've recieved with people's interpretation is awesome, and is enough to motivate me to try to stitch together something a bit longer. I think this experiment will translate just as well to print.

I think the last year in web comics has proven well that there is no community, and when you look to the usual cast of artists who push the limits of the medium, you're going to find folks who are growing up, having kids, and simply struggling to justify staying the course and continue to make any kind of comic. But the internet is big, and there are kids out there with fresh egos and naive enough to look at comics with a fresh eye.

The continuing dilema is "what do we do with ourselves?"

To be honest, I'm just not feeling comics right now. But I have boiled it down to one truth - I need to draw SOMETHING every day. Even if it's just for 15 minutes and nobody sees it. We have to stay sharp with our crafts so that when we're ready to be "artists" again, we'll be sharp.

Shit, I turned this into self-preaching again...

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[info]nvonflue
2008-04-18 04:00 pm UTC (link)
See, here's where we end up in different camps:

At the end of the day every comic book artist needs to have something to say, and that supercedes any format.

I'm opposed to this completely. I think there is a vital need for work that has nothing to say, but says it in a completely new way. It's always going to me marginalized work, to be sure, but it's incredibly important to the next generation of people who have things to say.

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[info]fabricari
2008-04-18 05:19 pm UTC (link)
Maybe at the end of the day, whatever camp you're in dictates the kind of experimentation you do. I like to think that the most successful innovations are those that help artists dictate their messages most powerfully. Then again, a day hasn't passed in the last couple weeks that I haven't poured through Chris Ware's sketchbook. He may not have had any real message when he compiled it, but it sure speaks volumes to me.

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[info]williamgeorge
2008-04-19 12:13 am UTC (link)
I'm not meaning to make an example of Tym...

No! Let's make an example of Tym!


I.... I hear he's a really nice guy!

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(Anonymous)
2008-04-19 02:33 pm UTC (link)
WHAT!?!
I turn my back for two seconds and out come the pitchforks!
Enough of this witchhunt!

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[info]tymmi
2008-04-19 02:35 pm UTC (link)
"Anonymous" is supposed to be: http://tymmi.livejournal.com/

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[info]williamgeorge
2008-04-19 12:11 am UTC (link)
Why is it that webcomics could have been so close to making work like this, years ago, yet totally drop the ball when the time was right? I mean, we've had talented people create programs to do just this kind of work, and we ignore them. Does it have something to do with our inherited relationship to print comics, a built-in inferiority complex?

You can take the easy route and pander to internet geeks and their limited set of likes and dislikes as readers, or you can take the far more difficult route pander to your desire as a true artist to innovate and grow.

As we can see by looking around, there are plenty of rewards for taking the first route and few to none for taking the second.

Even taking into account the utter lack respect that I have for the t-shirt salesmen and the personality cult leaders as human beings, I won't begrudge them the fact that at the end of the day, they got to make their rent.

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[info]tymmi
2008-04-19 02:31 pm UTC (link)
It's not that there's no web-native experimentation going on (some of Robert Sergel's strips come to mind, Cat's incorporating (limited) animation to interesting effect). For the most part it's all rather muted and incidental (excepting B.Shur, of course).

You know that I share your frustration. But talking gets us nowhere. All of your points are very familiar, after all.
That post was two years ago now - and hardly anything has changed. And these discussions barely make a ripple anymore. Why should they? They're just talk.

This sideline bitching can be a good vent, but in the end what's really gonna matter is what we do.

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